Bard Song is Overpowered

[TwistyShape]

To put it simply, on the scale of other magical buffs in the game, Bard Song is crazy strong for several reasons, which I think need adjusting to fit the server scope regarding other abilities.

• Spell Length - Bard song lasts 10 minutes per caster level; this means at the average level of 6 at the moment it can be cast once for 60 minutes and 180 minutes at the maximum level. They receive one cast per class level, which, as a fun point, can last 3,240 minutes or 58 hours if chained correctly. The only spell which also does this are the Zoo spells, which buff a singular stat in comparison to Bard Song, which does the following;
  
  

  Bard level	Perform	Attack	Damage	Will	Fortitude	Reflex	THP	AC	Skills
  1	3	1	1	0	0	0	1	1	1
  2	4	1	1	1	0	0	2	1	1
  3	5	1	1	1	1	0	4	1	1
  6	8	1	1	1	1	1	6	1	1
  8	11	1	1	1	1	1	8	1	1
  11	14	1	1	1	1	1	10	1	1
  14	17	1	2	2	2	2	12	2	2
  15	19	1	2	2	2	2	14	2	2
  16	21	1	2	2	2	2	16	2	2
  17	23	1	2	3	3	3	18	2	2
  18	25	1	3	3	3	3	20	3	3

• No Cool Down/Downtime/AoO - When casting Bardsong, there is no downtime between casts, meaning they can infinitely boost temp health while also reviving downed party members, something even divine healing cannot do.
• Curse Song is a Nuke - Curse Song can do, on average, 324 damage in a single spam if you use all charges at once with no cool down... Oh, and it's also AoE.

Compared to the other Bard feats for which it can be used, the base one seems so incredible that there is no reason to bother with the others. For example;

• Madrigal: A poetic ballade that grants 25% immunity to fire, electrical, cold and acid damage. Additional grants a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells to nearby allies. Lasts for 1 minute and consumes a charge of Bard Song.
• Blade of Songs: The bard's weapon deals 1d4 additional sonic damage for 1 minute per class level. Consumes a charge of Bard Song.

Why do these only last 1 minute per class level vs 10 minutes when the base bard song is stronger in some aspects? A shorter spell length would align this with many other buffs throughout the game and stop the current happenings of people trying to find a bard to buff them before leaving for whatever hunt they have planned.

Regarding Curse Song, we'd also suggest a long cool-down of around a minute per cast, if not longer. Zoo spells could perhaps also do with a little less time to bring them in line with many other abilities, but I don't think they're as agreegious.

Final Note: I play with a lot of bards. I love the class, but I feel this is far beyond the most potent ability when buffing a party in the game and doesn't seem to align with the rest of the vision. Sorry bards!

 

[MkIV]

I think while strong bard song is the central ability of what is functionally a caster class, and costing them 3 full high level spell circles to compensate. The core strength of bard is bardsong and for it to be as powerful as you say requires a full 18 level investment and -25- ranks in preform, a skill that is very limited outside its RP use and with this single ability.

Most of the extra songs are keyed off bard song charges that have limited uses per rest, and as a bard increases in level there are more uses for them. Sure if a bard did spend all his charges on just extending the base duration it would last forever but they are not designed for that. Using each song -once- is 7 of the 18 charges they get, with Pavane, Capriccio, madrigal and song of deception lasting 1 full minute.
If you want to use them for another fight? another 3 charges.
Reducing the duration of the base bard song heavily disincentives even considering the other songs, the reason bard song ends up as long as it does is to give players the flexibility to pick others without compromising the coverage the base song has. No bard is hoarding all their charges, they are looking for ways to spend them. They are meant to be high impact short term buffs to give bard something more reactive to play around with.

Yes a bard using all their charges spamming curse song is able to do lots of damage, over 18 rounds or just under *2 minutes*, when all spellcasters can do the same as well if not more since they not limited to a max of 9d4 damage a round of just damage, no other special effects.

 

[TwistyShape]

Okay then, I'll reiterate with a smaller number:

Let's say level six, since that's about average for most people on the server. That is an hour-long buff to +1 AC, AB, Damage, all saving throws, all skills and 4 temp HP.

Using each song -once- is 7 six of the 18 charges they get, with Pavane, Capriccio, madrigal and song of deception lasting 1 full minute.
If you want to use them for another fight? another 3 charges.

Ignoring a Bards other capabilities in terms of spells and purely focusing on Bard Song, that's still 4 fights of activation while still having the original Bard Song up which is far more utility.

Also, no other class can consistently spam a 9d4 spell once per round for 18 rounds, apart from perhaps warlock, which is a Target Ranged Touch attack which can be missed, to my knowledge (based upon the class sheet). Curse Song cannot miss. The bigger spells are left for dedicated spellcasters whose entire point is the ability to do this.

Bard having the most potent and long-lasting buff while potentially having the strongest AoE nuke is astonishing. Also, to touch on the investment to perform, I think that's kind of a moot point as I don't think there are enough other applicable skills for there to really be a battle in terms of other things you'd invest into, personally.

 

[Tessaria]

The only spell which also does this are the Zoo spells

...and also Barkskin, Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Greater Stoneskin, and Premonition.

Bards are fine; bard song is fine.

 

[TwistyShape]

...and also Barkskin, Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Greater Stoneskin, and Premonition.

Bards are fine; bard song is fine.

While I don't want to detract from the topic, I also think many spells need bringing down or levelling up.

How is Stoneskin a 10 min per level, but Greater Magic Weapon is five rounds per level? But there are also spells having their own CD based on the circle. I'm not sure if that plays into this, but it's a topic for another thread, perhaps.

I think anything 10 minutes per level is out of kilter with many other skills in the game and should be looked at with 1 Turn (minute) + Spell Mod. So, at level 8 the spell could still be 10 minutes in length.

 

[OccamsClub]

Due to skills capping at 14, it's actually gonna take some investment to hit that 25 Perform stat needed. Most Bards don't put Charisma above 16 for their spells - Eagles gets us to 17, one cast gets you to 19, but that still leaves +6 needed from feats or equipment bonuses.

The big feature is the THP, IMO. That'll be really helpful later to just soak up most of a hostile nuke when enemies are firing Fireballs etc.

( Either way, IMO, nothing wrong about this ability, it's not gonna make a solo bard OP, and it gives Bards a genuine argument for existing in larger groups when there are better buffers and better fighters around )

 

[TwistyShape]

I'm not saying anything else about the abilities that should change besides length/CD. No buff should be 10 minutes per level.

 

[MkIV]

Also, no other class can consistently spam a 9d4 spell once per round for 18 rounds, apart from perhaps warlock, which is a Target Ranged Touch attack which can be missed, to my knowledge (based upon the class sheet). Curse Song cannot miss. The bigger spells are left for dedicated spellcasters whose entire point is the ability to do this.

A wizard or sorcerer running down their spell circles will do a hell of a lot more than 9d4 per round. Yes curse song is powerful but it still costs charges and requires a feat. Its also worth considering that who would actually want to burn all their song charges for a single 'nuke', again over 2 minutes, with the bard being able to be attacked the entire time.

Curse song isn't some free instant stupid high damage, it's a tactical move that uses limited resources to do a moderate amount of damage in an AOE, at level 18 it's going to hit slightly more than 20ish
You know what a 3rd circle fireball does? 10d6, yes it has saves but there are -another- six levels of increasingly more powerful spells.
Yes curse deals a different damage and doesn't hurt allies but it's being out damaged by a 3rd circle spell, so I don't think it's as powerful nuke as you think it is.


The base bard song having the most utility both in duration and damage? Why would it not, it's a good idea to make the basic song powerful and be the DeFacto best, the other songs are meant to provide alternatives, not replace. They have very limited charges for what you would want to do with them, 18 only sounds big until you realize that a normal dungeon will last about an hour.

 

[TwistyShape]

A wizard or sorcerer running down their spell circles will do a hell of a lot more than 9d4 per round. Yes curse song is powerful but it still costs charges and requires a feat. Its also worth considering that who would actually want to burn all their song charges for a single nuke, again over 2 minutes, with the bard being able to be attacked the entire time.

Curse song isnt some free instant stupid high damage, its a tactical move that uses limited resources to do a moderate amount of damage in an AOE, at level 18 its going to hit slightly more than 20ish
You know what a 3rd circle fireball does? 10d6, yes it has saves but there are -another- six levels of increasingly more powerful spells.
Yes curse deals a different damage and doesnt hurt allies but its being out damaged by a 3rd circle spell, so I dont think its as powerful nuke as you think it is.

The base bard song having the most utility both in duration and damage? Why would it not, its a good idea to make the basic song powerful and be the DeFacto best, the other songs are meant to provide alternatives, not replace. They have very limited charges for what you would want to do with them, 18 only sounds big until you realize that a normal dungeon will last about an hour.

The argument I'd have for mages being able to do that is... That's all they do? And they're hamstrung pretty badly for it. Certainly, it could be a 10d6 fireball that has friendly fire, leaves them vulnerable to Aoo, has saving throws and a cool down for 3 minutes. They wear no armour, can't hold a melee fight worth anything and are simply glass cannons. The same can't be said for Bards.

My main point of contention is the utility available with very little hindrance to Bards. It's not the fact that they can do it; it's the length and duration of their ability to do it, which seems incredibly off-base compared to almost everything else.

 

[MkIV]

Im not saying anything else about the abilities that should change besides length/CD. No buff should be 10 minutes per level.

Some buffs lasting that long is a design choice, having a handful of buffs that don't 'run down the clock' encourages them to have a place in the toolkit that might otherwise not be used, Bulls strength as an example functionally is a +1, while of course good, has the wind taken out of by the likes of greater magic weapon which adds 2 damage, spells like aid, or keen weapon also increase damage or to hit as well as numerous others. Bulls strength/the other animal spells are outclassed by basically everything but have a long duration to give them -something-. What if we change it? +2 to hit and damge? +2 ac? that then changes them from the 'nice to have' to the 'suffering if you don't'

 

[MkIV]

The argument Id have for mages being able to do that is... Thats all they do? And theyre hamstrung pretty badly for it. Certainly, it could be a 10d6 fireball that has friendly fire, leaves them vulnerable to Aoo, has saving throws and a cool down for 3 minutes. They wear no armour, cant hold a melee fight worth anything and are simply glass cannons. The same cant be said for Bards.

My main point of contention is the utility available with very little hindrance to Bards. Its not the fact that they can do it; its the length and duration of their ability to do it, which seems incredibly off-base compared to almost everything else.

Mages also have a far wider spell selection and do more than just throw fireballs, they can offer supportive magic much the same way bards do, I think functionally bards have the same spell list but smaller with the exception of three of so heal spells, so in terms of pure spellcasting, bards are just worse off. Wizards/sorcs have haste, the animal spells, elemental weapon, stoneskin, elemental resist, improved invisibility and invisibility sphere, displacement, mind blank, -blackstaff a spell that gives a quaterstaff +3-, saying that all they can do is damage is disingenuous, and all of that is not including a wizards specializations or a sorcs bloodline, both of which can and do have other buffs.

As for bards fighting ability? It is literally the same as a cleric, both d8, both can wear medium armour but bards -need- a feat to effectively cast in it, both 3/4 bab and both get simple weapons+ (Gods weapon and rouge, both are effectively about the same). If a bard wants to fight in the frontline, they need to spend one of their limited special bard feats, that give stuff like 3 extra spell casts, different songs or more bard charges, they then also need to put stats into doing so effectively, a bard with 8 Str and 10 con isn't going to be words apart from a wizard with the same stats. A bard able to stab someone still has the make the same sacrifices as everyone else.

Curse song requires a bard to be close which is a bit of a issue considering they have the same HP as wizards and sightly more AC (Or the same if they both use mage armour, which light armoured bards will). While yes fireball has more issues again, it's still ranged and won't provoke AOO if the person isn't in knife range of an enemy, it is a third level spell, with wizards able to use 4th, 5h, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells before having cooldowns start actively impleading their ability to cast -more- damaging spells. Firebrand, a 5th level spell does 11d6 in a massive AOE and doesn't have the friendly fire concerns as an example of higher-level spells that a mage will go right into.


Bard song is as good as it is in order for the class to both function and feel good to play, a long lasting buff encourages players to use it for everyone rather than just for themselves, reducing it to a minute like what most buffs are means that they can use their core class ability, the one thing the entire kit of bard is centered around, for handful of minutes (with wasted time of course, its not 100% combat uptime) per rest, which then competes with the other bard songs.

Bards are infamous for not having a place, not being good at their sole job or feeling horrible to play, TDN offers a class that people -want- to play and -want- to have around, no small part of this due to how bard song works, It already has limited chargers per day, unlike most other alibies so its not even like its free to use whenever they want.

 

[Khaine]

I think it's important to look at what other class abilities do in comparison to Bard Song and see if there's an equivalence there. To me, there probably isn't.

Bard Song is something that I left alone when I shouldn't have, but there was too much work to do on other things and - as I've said many times when discussing such things on the Discord - only one coder who is also the admin, and he had a mountain of work to get through.

Also important to remember that Bard Song is not the only thing Bards get. They also get feats that allow them to really be the only functional gish class, and they get powerful Bard Song abilities like Intermezzo which is easily the strongest heal on the server. Intermezzo would need to be altered if Bard Song got shortened, but I think that's fine.

Bard Song currently does a 10 min / level buff. That's 180 minutes from one button press at level 18, and at that level they can do it 18 times (thats 54 hours of Bard Song just for context). This is the kind of 'buff and forget' that I was trying to avoid when I was designing things. Again, it's entirely on me that it got left in the state it is. Curse Song is similarly just too strong in its current form. It might not seem it to level 2-8 players, but Twisty is right that it's 324 average damage at max rank. Not just 324 average damage, but 324 average damage in an (if I remember correctly) uncapped AoE. That means you could round up a bunch of creatures, spam Curse Song and everything would die. I don't think the damage needs to be toned down, but I do think there needs to be a cooldown for uses of Curse Song specifically.

For arguments like 'wizard spells can do X' - yes they can, but they cost spell slots. Bards also have spells that cost spell slots, independent of their Bard Song. They also have 3/4 BAB and skills similar to a rogue. I think making comparisons of 'a wizard can do X' is irrelevant when comparing spells with core abilities. That said, I'm not dismissing the point that bards need something to make them stand out. But no one is really asking for bards to be nerfed, just the duration of their Bard Song and a cooldown for Curse Song. It won't hurt them terribly if they can't oneshot a boss by spamming Curse Song or they don't have over two days worth of Bard Song at their disposal without ever having to rest.

To summarise, I agree with Twisty. I think if people feel like bards would get shafted by these changes they're not giving this enough thought about what it would mean for bards really, but if people really feel like this is a nerf too far, maybe bards could also use a few extra things to balance that out.

 

[Reikenbach]

Just going to point out that Bards also get what amounts to a permanent Legend Lore effect from Bardic Knowledge as of level 8. Given the ability would otherwise scale to +18 and is only capped at +8 because all skills are capped at +8, it's bonkers to me that this was left untouched when other class-based skill bonuses cap at +4.

Back on the topic of Bard Song though, the fact that it gives +3 Deflection AC at high levels - when comparatively limited spells like Shield or Shield of Faith only give +2 - also seems highly unreasonable. The potency of Warden's team buffs, which are similar to Bard Song, are hampered by how limited their uptime is, but Bard Song is basically 100% of the time with one or two casts.

Currently, I'd argue the +1 AB/+1 AC that Bards give everybody is on its own what makes them worth taking in a group, and that's not even accounting for their spells or ability to contribute in combat as a 3/4 BAB class.

 

[MkIV]

The +3 AC is really strong, and as you said only slightly nerfed by it being the most common AC bonus so it doesn't stack with a hell of a lot.

That being said it still requires 14 full levels of bard to be better than its +1 form and only reaches the +3 at a full 18 levels of pure bard. Anything more than +1 cuts it out from a lot of multi class options and still requires a heavy skill investment to even reach that point. The duration is long and could be shortened but I still think it should fit in the 'longer' category, rather than the '1 fight' that most buffs are.

Bards are effectively Clerics or favoured souls trading away spell circles and spell lists for bard song and all its features. They make good gishes but it costs them some of their precious bardic feats and only then it puts them on par with other armoured casters. They are still a d8, 3/4 bab class.

Should bard song be as impactful as a 9th level spell? No, but that 7th and 8th circles are what they are effectively trading for it. They don't have high impact spells like implosion, black blade, mass heal or other momentum changing magic as other casters, bard song being an effective and resilient buff to trade for it seems fair.

 

[Reikenbach]

One thing to remember is that the majority of those more impactful Cleric/FS spells have prohibitively long cooldowns, and need proper judgment about when they should be used. Bard Song needs no contemplating at all.

As for duration, I think changing Bard Song to something like (10 + CL) or even (11 + CL/2) Minutes would be reasonable. As it is, Bard Song lasts so long that you don't even need to bring the Bard with you.

 

[WillDigForFood]

Im not saying anything else about the abilities that should change besides length/CD. No buff should be 10 minutes per level.

On the contrary: almost all buffs should be 10 minutes/lvl.

The only thing short duration buffs encourage people to do is to not RP in dungeons. Giving people something that is simultaneously a QoL bonus while also freeing them up from having to feel like they need to rush and not immerse themselves in the experience to get the most use out of their spells? Sign me up!

 

[TwistyShape]

On the contrary: almost all buffs should be 10 minutes/lvl.

The only thing short duration buffs encourage people to do is to not RP in dungeons. Giving people something that is simultaneously a QoL bonus while also freeing them up from having to feel like they need to rush and not immerse themselves in the experience to get the most use out of their spells? Sign me up!

But long-duration buffs counter the thematic ideas painted by the server lore, as that is pretty powerful magic. Should they run longer? Sure... Hours? Holy shit no. A turn is 1 minute. If you added your Casting Modifer as extra turns, you could be casting, for example, Bull's Strength that lasts 10 minutes at level 8. I think that's a nice middle ground.

It's not that I don't get what you're saying with this. I agree that short buffs do stifle RP in dungeons, but perhaps there are other ways around this than "buff spells" that may lay within the Rest System? In fact, in consideration, an argument could be made about less-long buffs, meaning you have to consider a short rest during a dungeon actually adding to the RP scenario.

 

[Reikenbach]

While I agree that the duration of Bard Song ought to be brought down, I can't disagree further about something like Bull's Strength. Reducing its duration to Minute/CL would mean it wouldn't even last half the time you're in an average-length level-appropriate dungeon at level 8, particularly when you factor in the amount of time spent standing around waiting for heal kits to tick. Bull's Strength applies to only one target, takes a level 3 spell slot (CD), and has a specific and limited use - Bard Song affects *everybody* at once and applies bonuses to offense, defense, saves, and skills. It's not a comparable scenario, and nerfing the zoo spells would be equivalent to nerfing Mage Armor or Magic Vestment.

Honestly, I don't really agree with bringing Bard Song duration down too low, either - maybe to something you need to use two or three times per average-length level-appropriate dungeon for 100% uptime, so that Bards still have the option to use their alternative songs.

 

[Gadwin]

Bards are very easily a top 4 class and they go against the magic/buff design of the server in their current implementation. Numbers need to be looked at and tweaked.

 

[MkIV]

The basic bard song is explicitly not magical, so most of what a bard does is mundane