Dungeons: Difficulty, Soloing, Rewards, and More!

[Caiden]

Hello, everyone!

Oh boy, I love diving into design concepts like this. I'm going to show some of my corporate nerd side here, but I hope I can help!

I've seen a handful of threads in the player-support channel of the Discord and one here on the forums. Feedback has been all over the place, and I feel like consolidating the problems the players are trying to resolve with their suggestions will help a lot. On top of that, there are some nuances this server has to consider that aren't being discussed in the other channels.

The staff know more about the server, its mechanics, and nuances than I do. They've probably already had these discussions and know everything I'm outlining. This post is by no means a lecture or a 'do it this way' rant. I'm creating this to help outline the feedback I've seen and highlight some restrictions that some folks aren't considering.

Table of Contents​

Ctrl+F to find these.

• Terminology
• The Problems
• Motivation
• Problems Expanded
• Restrictions and Nuances
• Solutions that Don't Work
• The Carrot and the Stick
• Solutions
• Conclusion

Terminology Used​

When discussing issues like this, it's important everyone defines things the same way. So for this entry, I'll define what I mean with these terms:

• Difficulty: The suggested level and/or statistics of a character to complete content with the ideal experience.
  • Difficulty factors in level, gear, number of people, etc.
• Strong: Characters that are above the difficulty range of the content.
• Normal: Characters that are within the difficulty range of content.
• Weak: Characters below the difficulty range.
• Rewarding: Current costs and risks include death, equipment repair, and the cost of healing kits to sustain progress. The reward is the different between coin earned and the costs of progress.

The Problems​

So, what are the problems we as players, and the community as a whole, have to look at? From what I've read, the big-picture problems come down to two things:

• Strong characters can complete content weaker than them.
  • Groups or soloing.

Motivation​

Problems almost always have a why associated with them. I believe the why is pretty straight forward for the problems.

• Easy content is rewarding for strong characters and groups to complete.

In an ideal world, players can be trusted to try and stick to content within their power range. Sadly, that sort of thing can never be relied on in communities above a dozen or so people. Systems need to apply pressure to guide people down the ideal game path.

Problems Expanded​

Yup, nothing I've said is new or interesting, but it's important to lay these out as we get into nuances. So now we have our problems, right? Not quite. Each of those problems has effects that ripple outward, and they need to be factored into finding the solution.

• Strong groups can complete content weaker than them.
  • Normal characters are locked out of content that is ideal for them.
  • Strong characters facing less risk for the same reward as normal characters goes against the spirit of the server.

Restrictions and Nuances​

Now comes the bucket of nails we need sort through. These are server-specific restrictions and 'game feel' nuances. These points are crucial need to be highlighted.

1. The party mechanic has been disabled.
   • This isn't highlighted as a problem, just a fact of the server.
2. Coin and loot are in containers.
   • These containers can be looted by anyone.
3. Any area can be used for role play scenes and plots in the future.
   • World areas need to be open to players for the above reason.
4. Strong characters sometimes act as guides for weaker characters doing normal content.

To approach final solutions for the problems and motivations listed, the above need to be considered, changed, or removed.

Solutions That Don't Work​

Ugh! So much text, Caiden! Where's my TL;DR? I get it, but we need to understand why something doesn't work before final solutions can be created.
Why are these restrictions and nuances important? Well, let's throw some solutions around and find out. Time to throw some spaghetti at the wall.

1. Reduce loot for strong characters doing weaker content.​

• Strong characters sometimes act as guides for weaker characters doing normal content.

This change would punish weaker characters being guided by a strong character. Perhaps that's okay? Maybe being safer and gaining knowledge from a veteran is the tradeoff? The staff would need to analyze this path a bit more to determine its importance and value.

2. Lock players out of areas too far below their level.​

• Any area can be used for role play scenes and plots in the future.

Sadly, we can't do that. If there's a conflict between players, a plot, a scene, a meeting, or anything emergent that spills into one of these areas, it would be pretty awkward and abuse-able. A weaker player could use the area transition in their favour. Strong characters would hit a weird, immersion-breaking wall.

3. Auto-split coin when looted.​

• The party mechanic has been disabled.

You can detect who is in an area, and everything about them, but we can't detect who is associated with whom when partying. Back to point 1 in the list above, with the party system disabled, we cannot auto split looted coin between people without knowing who is adventuring with whom. On top of that, there's a role play and immersion factor of players finding coin and items in the world. There are opportunities that come from all of it as it exists. Theft, divvying up loot, trades, etc.

4. Scale monsters to be harder when strong characters are present.​

• Strong characters sometimes act as guides for weaker characters doing normal content.

This suggestion is the opposite of reducing loot. It punishes normal characters who are traveling with stronger ones. Is this okay? Do we care?

5. Scale strong characters down to a maximum range of stats like AC, HP, AB, and damage when entering areas below them.​

• Any area can be used for role play scenes and plots in the future.

There's a sense of progression and growth that comes with spending hundreds of hours role playing, leveling, and equipping a character. If for any reason there's a plot, or a friend is in danger, or similar, and a strong character comes striding into the kobold den, they should absolutely be able to help and show their prowess. Scaling players down has its merits, but can also be quite detrimental.

The Carrot and the Stick​

Let's finally visit the why of strong characters doing weaker content. It's more rewarding than higher-level content and less risk. Well, the solution is obvious, right?

Increase Rewards for High-Level Content​

This suggestion is definitely important because it ties directly into the motivation mentioned previously. However, it has wider ramifications on the server as a whole.
Here's a different question.

• Should dangerous content always be rewarding?

This suggestion also ties into a server philosophy I'm not sure about. I'm talking out of my butt for this part. TDNs higher-level content may be designed to be rewarding sometimes. Whether this is true or not, I'm not sure, but if the staff are going to tackle this problem and solution, it's something to consider.

As we know from typical video game RPGs, higher-level content rewards better money and gear. However, TDN is a very grounded world with a gradual curve in power and wealth. Adding better rewards to higher-level content augments those curves, especially when that content is repeatable multiple times a week. Players who rotate entirely around a set of PvE zones can accumulate huge amounts of assets.

This suggestion also assumes one very important user mentality:

• "I, as a higher-level player, have outgrown weaker content and want to do something within my level, while experiencing the same ratio of cost and reward as I'm used to."

Is this belief and player understanding in line with the vision of the server?

• If yes, then the more difficult content will have to simply give more rewards. Whether this is coin, equipment, or objects directly tied into professions, the cost and risk of doing the content will need to be rewarding at a similar ratio to doing things like kobolds, goblins, and bandits.
• If no, then this vision needs to be shared with the players. Is higher-level content going to be more of a, "maybe we'll find something super valuable from this run" approach? Is it like pulling the level of a slot machine? You input the cost of danger, healing kits, and durability for the chance of something extremely profitable? This is something that depends on the vision of the server. Whatever the expectation, it's good to consider when going forward.

Solutions​

These solutions are from my player perspective and aren't complete. They're piecemeal and hopefully act as something to spark ideas for future balancing and development. Think of them like LEGO that can be fitted into other things if desired.

Fatigue - Adventuring is Dangerous and Scary​

For this suggestion to have any merit, higher-level content would need to be consistently rewarding.
Just like RP-EXP is limited to a pool, characters could have a background stat represents their physical and mental fatigue. You decide how many creatures per 24-hour period a character can reasonably face before they start accumulating debuffs. A form of exhuastion that reduces their stats gradually the worse it gets. Enough room to push through the end of a dungeon, but harsh enough to make adventuring while fatigued very dangerous.
If my character can only fight X creatures per day, I'm sure as heck not going to bother with weaker ones that aren't as rewarding.

More Gubbins - Coin and Crafting​

This suggestion would require, I imagine, even more work being put into the already complicated system of professions.
Baubles of all kinds are found in containers throughout dungeons. We don't want to touch these in essence because there's RP and businesses around them.
This suggestion would require a more expanded loot table.
Increase the coin value of loot items in difficult content and tie them into future professions. This approach gives players a choice; Do I sell this thing for coin, or keep it for a recipe to make better equipment later?
Again, this increases more total coin into the economy, but it adds more value to things found instead of splitting directly into coin.

Trading - Supply and Demand​

We are in one of the trade capitals of the world. There are places that desire materials and objects because it's hard for them to get. Items found in easier content will be far more common and therefore have less value. There should be a minimum, enough for new players to start building wealth. However, that diminished value should be less appealing to stronger characters.
What do I mean by trade? Inspired by games like Archeage, Black Desert, and Elite: Dangerous, there could be NPCs in different parts of the world that want different things.

Here's an example flow:

• My character fights kobolds and gets some loot. The merchants of Murann buy these for their normal value. I get some silver for my time and effort.
• My character fights lizardmen and gets different kinds of items. The merchants in Murann can certainly buy these, but there's a person in Trademeet that buys them for much more.

Perhaps there are NPCs running a mining operation on a mountain that pays even more, but it's farther and more dangerous to get there. Maybe the elves of the Wealdath have their own traders and needs?
What does this do? It creates RP opportunities for the players and brings life to the roads of the world.

• People with certain Skills can sell these items for more, much like Constance, Leon, Lucien, and similar do.
• People can organize trade caravans with guards to make treks across the world to Trademeet and beyond.
• It creates possible incentive for banditry, guard groups, diplomacy RP, and more.

Healing Kits - Fewer Mummies Maybe​

Spamming healing kits is currently the core of sustaining when running content of reasonable difficulty. Part of the problem cutting into the risk/reward ratio of difficult content is this factor. It's not uncommon for groups to go through 100+ kits per run of lizardmen, sahuagin, orcs, etc.

Things that can change:

• Damage dealt by enemies
• Upfront Healing
• Healing Over Time
• Duration
• Weight
• Cost

These changes shouldn't make content easier or more difficult, but shift the cost investment of each adventure. If someone is healing for 1 hit point (HP) per round for 60+ seconds, they'll need to be very careful if the average damage they take is between 10 to 20 per hit.

Determine the pace groups advance through content by tweaking these values. A single bandage healing for 1 or 2 HP per round for a long time would replenish a lot of HP, but also force groups to slow down their advance and pace themselves. It would also reduce the total amount of healing kits used.
Enemies dealing less damage would make kits much stronger. However, if there's a cooldown or if the duration is longer with less healing per round, then it could even out.
I won't suggest numbers, but things could be touched up here to reduce overhead. People carrying 100+ healing kits on their adventure is kinda nuts.

Conclusion​

This is a huge wall of text, but I hope it helps even a little. As I think of new ideas, I'll add them to the list.
I really enjoy this server and it has some fantastic foundations. Thanks for all your work.

 

[Tassadarh]

I do have a more straightforward suggestion for the current ills, but:

I do like the Fatigue mechanic as a concept. It reminds me Darkest Dungeon, where your adventurers needed rest between the marches, else they would break, mentally!
Also a similar effect in HEART the City Beneath with MIND being a stat you can get "hurt" and needing to heal points in it by drinking alchool or... resting for a long time!
It's an attitude I'd like to see in some way, but it needs to be implemented very much gracefully, so that handling your stress could be fun and not just "a chore" that is preventing you from doing your daily dungeon run.
It has some merit but, it looks like a very big mechanic to introduce and would be better to think (and test) its implementation in the overall design, and not just when we think about loot.

I think what you are suggesting next, the crafting materials as loot, is planned, just that we don't have professions now and we'll need a bandaid solution till then (more on this later).

As for different vendors, this would work only if you are considering this a single player game. Doing a moderate long dungeon could take around 2 hours, coming and going included. If you, on top of that, take at least 1 hour to just sell the loot and get a good profit, people would loose their marbles and it would be really hard to split the loot. We gotta be respectful of people's time; activities already take long time because you need to create a grounded reason to put yourself in situations, if we gotta RP every minute meaningless detail... it basically delivers the keys to the game to the nolifers.

I agree the bandage kits are a bit excessive in their current usage, but wouldn't see them changing before the rest of the system change. They are a good tax in terms of upfront cost and weight and they avoid having to rest (AKA spend even more time in dungeons).

----

I'll copy paste what I wrote on the discord for my 2 cents on the matter:


It seems there is an issue with the loot system and how it was intended (https://www.dragonsneck.com/threads/january-2023-developer-update.209/), meaning that we can't have the system as it was envisioned (for now) and this is creating the main issues with high level and solo grinding.
I do understand this "scaling" has been introduced as a bandaid solution to prevent the economy to go out of control, to avoid having basically millionaries (cause you can fill the bank, then start buying items that you eventually need, so virually you have "more" money) with little to nothing to spend on. It can be fixed a bit to make it work as intended, waiting for progression to be implemented (professions and crafting, so we have money to spend on things other than moneysink like repairs, kits and licences).

But I don't think it might be the right way to go while we wait for progression. I'd rather have a system that simply (for now) removes mobs and loot, then notify of the system working (with some IC narration stuff "they run away and got all their loot"). This way we avoid situation of people meeting previously spawned buffed mobs and in general any possible hiccup related to modifying mobs.
This way we prevent high level grinding and solo grinding at the core: it's impossible unless someone trying to cheese the system (and in that case, intervention of the DM would be easier).

However, whatever system is chosen for going forward (buffs, despawn, etc) I do suggest to review the high level dungeons to ensure a group of 6 characters who are around lvl 6 to 8 can easily get an average of 150 tarans each when completing the dungeon. I think you should be getting more at that level, but since there are little things to spend money on, just ensuring a successful adventure at your level will net you a profit at high level is a necessary step if easier forms of money making are removed... else we'll see groups of level 8 going for the buffed version of kobolds because it is still the only way they can get a reasonable profit to repair, buy kits and save for licences.
So, up until we get crafting (and with that item progression and, I guess, crafting materials as loot), every successful "hard" dungeon should net you the same amount of profit no matter the level (as, technically, you have the very same "needs" no matter your level, currently).

 

[Caiden]

Thanks for the reply! I absolutely agree that more holistic implementations are going to be better in the long run. Your point about changing healing kits for example. Doing it alone would be silly. It'd need to be balanced around and included in the rest of any system changes.

I won't lie, I think a trade system would be awesome. Having player-made trade runs going about the map and all the potential emergent stories coming from it makes my RP brain tingle. However, you're right in that time should be respected.
Systems like this should be, "Here's a reward for doing the thing!"
Not, "Here's a punishment for not doing the thing."
Selling stuff in the closest city could certainly be somewhat profitable, but engaging in the world and its trade could be even more so. But that's getting into super gritty problem solving, when I have no insight into their existing design ideas or work, so I'll stop there.

I'm curious to see which direction they go regardless!

 

[Caiden]

Since much of the preamble is done, I'll post more complaints I'm seeing and potential solutions in replies.

Problem - Oversized Parties​

The ideal group size seems to be between four and six. More players present makes content too easy.
I've seen this come up a few times as a problem, but I believe it may be already solved. Perhaps putting how it works on a sign or something would help nudge OOC/IC behaviours.

Potential/Existing Solution?​

If more than (6+X) players are present in an area when spawning creatures, the amount of items found in containers is reduced by a factor of X.
Reduce the chances of trophies dropping, the amount of coins in containers, and the number of items.
If experience is rewarded, it should also be reduced.
But, again, I believe this solution is already a thing.

Problem - Judging Threats Before Engagement​

To determine if an enemy is beyond your character, you must take a huge risk and start to fight it. This can lead to immediate or rapid death.
Is this a problem? I'm not sure. The server vision is for a more gritty, realistic approach. This may be fine as is. We can't tell how strong something is, from a stats perspective, just by looking at it.

Potential Solution​

However, if a solution is desired, then a role play 'gut check' could be a great compromise. Everquest used the /consider system for players to determine if a creature was stronger or weaker than them. They later added to this by colour coding the message. I wouldn't go that far, but a custom TDN-flavoured message could be neat
Examining a creature could display a system message. Examples taken from Everquest.

• -4 levels and below, "Looks like a reasonably safe opponent."
• -1 to -3 levels, "Looks kind of risky, but you might win."
• Same level, "They appear quite formidable."
• +1 and +2 levels, "Looks like quite a gamble."
• +3 levels and up, "What would you like your tombstone to say?"

 

[Wuudd PallyKnight]

Regarding the last patch notes and recent community feedback at the Discord,
It seems that the monsters strength returned to normal, yet there are no bounties from them any longer.

This seems overkill for the server economy, since a lot of players haven't got a daily job (what with the limited job opportunity slots anyway).

If we may suggest, Please kindly return the bounties as before to give economic solutions for the adventurers who cannot get a job.
The server is really hard already for average players,
Giving them more lenient economic solutions (bounties and dungeon loot, good job prospects) would allow players (adventurers and civilians alike) to relax and enjoy RP and not taran-maxxing every hunt/job

Thank you!

 

[TwistyShape]

Regarding the last patch notes and recent community feedback at the Discord,
It seems that the monsters strength returned to normal, yet there are no bounties from them any longer.

While I get the concern I have a feeling the missing bounties are not an intentional change.

EDIT: This has since been fixed.