1.) I was told there would be changes to address the skill cap/skill banking system, requiring a lot of extra planning for multiclassing, but I’m mostly just seeing a lowered skill cap. Can you elaborate if other changes were made to the system?
2.) I’m not sure what it means when BAB is averaged out at 11. Could you provide a table example? Does it continue progressing at your highest rate, does it stop, are 4th iterative attacks still possible?
3.) Will reagents be inventory items, if they have to be used before casting is there a prototype for instant item interactions already?
1: This was missed in the initial comms, I will update the original post with the following information:
- Skill Ranks will be capped at level 11.
- Skill Point Banking is being retired.
- In other words, you use what skills the class grants. Failing to do so will require a relevel.
2: Yes, here is an example of an 11Fighter/7Wiz Build:
3: Reagents will be contained inside of a specific container (bag) held on the PC. These reagents will be auto-consumed if eligible for a spellcast cooldown reduction.
I enjoy the vast majority of the concepts put forth by the update, however I do feel the cooldowns are a bit aggressive for levels 3-5. However this depends greatly on if a pure caster can effectively nullify the cooldown on them, preferably without reagents.
My reasoning is this: With these changes your average caster is effectively neutered as even with a high modifier you are unlikely to have more than 5-6 spell slots of 1-2, effectively forcing you to cantrips for extended periods of time. The choice is then to exclusively buff which neuters many of the options that have been provided for casters of all types to potentially do more than buff and hide at the back. Particularly options like the evoker specialization will become undesireable. I do overall like the changes to hit die, the idea that you effectively 'cap' at level 11 for the most part, but the cooldowns for levels 3-5 are a bit too heavy in my opinion considering how few spell slots one is likely to have of them in the first place.
There were a number of concerns mentioned around Spellcasting Cooldowns, I want to highlight a couple things and then provide some add'l context in long-form after..
- Scrolls & Wands will be unaffected by Spell Cooldowns entirely.
- Spell Cooldowns are on a by-spell-level basis.
- I.e. Casting a spell level 4 spell does not set a cooldown on casting spell level 5. The cooldown is only in place for spell level 4 spells.
Long-Form Clarification:
Regarding spell cooldowns, I'll break the responses to peoples concerns down on a more general note but I'll try to address peoples individual issues later. Hopefully this will give people some context and answers.
Lore considerations: Most people aren't really approaching it from this angle but because it actually does matter to the vision of TDN, we'll go through this first. In the lore, it's always been known and discussed that after the Longest Year and during the timeline when players will be starting, the highest circle of spells most people (if anyone) has seen is third. As story and mechanics should feed into one another, it makes much sense that people are struggling with spells of the third circle and above. However people want to roleplay this is up to them, and it's expected to generate some discussion as it will impact combat situations and every mage will have to understand why. Further, this gives us leeway to change things in the future while still allowing us to maintain setting integrity.
If people were allowed to cast as normal servers allow, this lore piece would suffer greatly in the eyes of many to the point it was largely an irrelevant piece. We've been looking for ways constantly to level out the expectations of magic in the wake of TLY and this - we felt - is a good way of approaching it. Not only does it force casters to use their spells more sparingly, and thus lower the overall magic tone of the setting, but it makes the higher level spells seem more fantastical and grandiose when used.
Mechanical considerations: The real big one here. Basically, there are far too many spells that are far too useful and convenient for players. There is far too much damage that can be leveraged at will, even with the limited spell slots. Many spells can be cast not only multiple times in a single encounter, but can also be upscaled with metamagic for more uses. What that allows is a level of freedom - particularly in later levels - that would trivialise just about any encounter that a mundane group of adventurers would face; particularly any kind of larger creatures or boss monsters that can be simply nuked down in three rounds or so. In order to balance such creatures we would have to offer them spell resistance or buff out their health pools to be so high it makes very little sense. We did not want to go the damage sponge route.
So this is a huge problem, as this then promotes a large sense of redudancy for any non-magical class and instead incentivises every class to feel like they need magic to do anything. We do not want to balance content around the stark differential between groups without casters and groups with casters, as it ruins the magic tone and prevents a lot of people from feeling like they can play a certain way, or having a certain philosophy of no magic.
We could have nerfed all of the spells into the ground, to the point where magic did not feel meaningful or impactful at all. No one would be happy with that. We will be nerfing them some, but they will still be impactful. Furthermore, dungeons are being crafted with all of this in mind. You will find that the Fire Arrow you cast which you're expecting to do 4d6 damage per arrow may in fact do double that on enemies that it makes sense to - thus rewarding creativity and common sense. You can still potentially wipe out large packs not only with an AoE damage spell, but also by abusing the kind of creatures you expect to have low saves in a particular area.
For the people who believe conjuration or transmutation will be the clear winners because they're buffs that last longer, that's not going to be the case. They'll provide more consistent benefits but they won't grant you the ability to completely eliminate a potentially dangerous opponent outright, which may be far more valuable overall when those enemies would still be hitting your tank who only has an extra +1-3 AC from your buffing efforts, or who takes far longer to beat down with just melee swings.
For summoned creatures, they aren't going to be insane to the point where they're a no-brainer. They're largely going to help a little but mostly be a distraction. They won't be competitive damage with a player character martial. Either they'll help you tank enemies or they'll do decent damage, but not both.
For buffs, the intention and hope is that people will more carefully select who and when they buff, and that those buffs will provide somewhat meaningful benefits without - again - being the clear winner when it comes to the overall dungeon.
Each spell circle after third has its own cooldowns, and there are animal buffs and defensives before third circle that should still give you the option to escape or fight reasonably well, including the abilities that pure 1/2 BAB scaling classes. If we actioned this change to health pools and AB without this change, casters would very easily at higher levels just cast several high damage spells without stopping, buff themselves into oblivion and have their pets soloing dungeons with them. We cannot have that while also saying martial/mundane classes are viable with a straight face. You can still do a lot of damage with metamagic and upscaling, or you can provide utility. The cooldowns just ensure you can't do everything all at once.
Another consideration no one is talking about is that scrolls and wands will still be free to use and will have no cooldown, alongside the reagents. Both of these things together ensure that if you want to do more in a dungeon, you can, but it will cost you each time you do it.
Ultimately, any classes effectiveness is how quickly it eliminates threats and mitigates the cost of taking damage. Casters of all sorts will offer things that no other class can, but it's felt that the spell cooldowns will prevent them from being the god-like figures at higher levels that they enjoy on most servers. The cooldowns may seem overly aggressive at the moment, but I believe on paper 3-9 minutes especially looks a lot longer than it feels in-game if you take into account travelling through the dungeon and roleplaying. If you rush through dungeons with less roleplay that's fine, but casters will pay for it certainly. What does that mean? It means the mundane classes that don't wait will have to pick up the slack and suffer more potential damage and healing costs.
That said, if we find the cooldowns are too aggressive, we will adjust. We can't offer any solid promises on this being perfectly balanced as we don't know, but this we felt was a good starting point to try for the end goal we're trying to attain. Trust we don't want to cripple anyone or make things entirely not fun for casters, but we do want the mechanics and story to mesh well. Understandably this is a big departure from the norm, but we're just asking for a bit of an open mind on it.
We will continue to clarify as time progresses.
Will Background Feats be affected by the lower skill cap? Same question for non-Background feats.
Feats that add skill points will
continue to add skill points to classes beyond level 11. The primary piece that is being capped is when you distribute skill points during level-up.
Throwing a summary of BAB averaging discussion on Discord here as promised:
- The BAB averaging kicks in at character level 12 and later only
- The BAB averaging is in effect for both single-classed and multi-classed characters
- The way it works is that it sums up the floating-point BAB of each class level you have (0.5 per level of half-BAB classes, 0.75 per level of 3/4-BAB classes, 1 per level of Full-BAB classes), then divides that sum by your total character level, and multiplies it again by 11. This final result is then rounded up to determine the character's actual BAB at that level
Aschent_ posted a chart demonstrating this.
View attachment 208
A few consequences of this system to note:
- Your BAB can decrease post-level 11 if your characters early levels are in higher-BAB classes than the ones you are taking at later levels
- The time at which you take a given level in a multi-class character will not matter for your total BAB post-level 11
- An unforeseen consequence at the moment, characters that are single-classed in a 3/4-BAB class will actually have a BAB of +9 at level 18, unlike what the wiki says. This is because their actual floating-point BAB under the hood is 13.5, which is averaged back to 8.25, which yields a BAB of +9 when rounded up. To quote Aschent_ "I'll look at it, however my gut thought is to be OK with that. However don't take that as gospel"
Personal thoughts:
- I wish the floating-point summation part of this system would actually be in effect from level 1. It gets rid of weird BAB breakpoints and multi-level stretches where your BAB doesn't increase if you are multiclassing in less-than-full-BAB classes, and would probably make it simpler to understand overall since players don't have to deal with two entirely different ways of calculating BAB
- Maybe look at two-weapon fighting penalties? The penalties hit a lot harder in a lower-AB environment, especially for 3/4-BAB classes. Extra attacks are powerful so it's possible they are fine, but I don't have the full picture to determine for myself.
We are going to be looking into the following points, so nothing to share yet.
- The inconsistency between single-class BAB chart and what they would receive due to averaging/normalization.
- Two-weapon fighting penalties.
By "Skill Progression will cap at 11." do you mean skill ranks are capped at level 11 (14 invested points) or are skill points no longer granted past level 11?
The latter: Skill points are no longer granted past level 11.
If someone begins casting a spell that triggers a cooldown, but they either cancel that spell from being cast or that spell fizzles (such as from taking damage and failing the concentration), does the spell circle still go on cooldown?
The cooldown will only trigger upon a successful spellcast. (Note: Failing a roll against your target is still considered a successful spellcast).
General Questions:
a. Are skill ranks averaged at 11 (so beginning at level 8), or are skill ranks averaged once you reach level 11 (so at 14 skill ranks total)?
- For sake of ease, I am going to assume it is averaged at 11 skill ranks for my other questions.
b. Are feats and class and racial features also averaged or applied after the skill point averaging?
- Race Feature: after maxing out perception and taking their +2 race bonus into account, would a moon elf with skill affinity listen and spot have 11 spot and listen, or 13 spot and listen?
- Class Feature: Would a bard with 11 in all five knowledge skills end up at 11 or 29 knowledge via 18 levels of bardic knowledge?
- Feat Bonus: Would a character with maxed stealth and the stealthy feat (+2ms, +2hide) end up at 11 stealth or 13 stealth?
c. Are ability modifiers, feats, class and racial stuff added after the averaging of BAB and Spell DCs?
- Attack Bonus: Does a swashbuckler with 11 levels and weapon focus have an effective 12 attack bonus?
- Spell DCs: Will spell focus and greater spell focus still raise the effective spell DC by 2 and 2 respectively?
a/b: Skill points are not averaged at any point. Feats will continue to grant bonuses to skill points as usual.
c: Yes, the change we have proposed is specifically BAB which is the Attack Bonus generated from the base class itself (and not the feats/abilities/etc).
I think most questions I had have already been asked, but one more general thing I'd like to ask: What is the idea behind averaging everything out?
This really only seems to complicate things, especially with you being able to loose HP and Bab depending on the multiclass you take, which goes against the idea of progression.
Every little thing now has to be rethought (as evident by all the questions about it.) and some character concepts work best with multiclassing, so those get the short end of the stick now because pure classes seem to be more beneficial. Im not sure what the aversion to multiclassing on the server is about anyway if Im being honest, I get that you can get some overpowered builds from it, but this change (and some before it) kinda blanket nerf multiclassing, even if they aren't overpowered at all. I think just capstones are a good incentive to keep a pure class, without having to nerf multiclasses.
The nerfs to the rogue also seem a bit excessive. the little bit of extra skill points on some skills he gets don't make up for the skill cap and certainly not for the lowered sneak damage. And what's worse is now due to casters having more HP, he has the same amount as a wizard, sorc, etc... but rogues are mostly melee... I really don't understand why they should have the same HP as a wizard. But the discussion in the discord already told me there will be no change to it, which is why Im scrapping my character concept and now Im having trouble finding one I would enjoy, but all the averaging out and other changes have made this really hard.
This change effectively balances the server at level 11 while still leaving room for mechanical progression beyond 11. As I stated in the original announcement, you should disregard what leveling up traditionally looks like on other server and view this more akin to a Paragon-style level-up system where your build expands laterally, not linearly. The reason that averaging comes into play is this: A PC with 14.5 BAB (11Fighter/7Wiz) is
significantly stronger than a character with 9 BAB. If you want your PC to maintain a higher BAB, take more fighter levels rather than Wiz. If you want more spells, take Wiz.
As for Rogues: Honestly you're intentionally being intellectually dishonest here. You were given a direct & valid explanation on Discord and you have disregarded this. I will repeat it again for those that are curious : Rogues before this change capped out at 9d6 Sneak Attack at 18. With this change, they cap at 7d6. This is only 2d6 difference and actually LESS than if we just capped everything at 11. I don't see a valid or logical argument to claim that despite us balancing every other class around 11, that we should maintain rogues receiving the same damage boost as if we set the cap at pre-update 18. My perspective is what you care about is multiclassing, and the reality is that attempting to build in a way that encourages multiclassing is really a fools-errand as there are countless ways to multiclass and trying to account for them all is a waste of time.
I want to be abundantly clear : If all you care about is mix/maxing your character's strength, and you are going to sacrifice character concepts in order to do it. This isn't the server for you. I have said this numerous times. Build your character to match the concept you want. Do not build a concept around a min/maxed build.
((Arcane Trickster Recommendations))
Thank you for the feedback. I don't have anything to share at the moment however I can commit that we will take a look. In design-phase, Arcane Trickster and Blade Singer were a couple of the strongest classes before adjustments that you've seen. So we are particularly keen on ensuring that we don't over-correct.
I also want to address a few more specifics:
- There is a false belief going around that TDN was ready to go in June and we were just waiting on art assets to roll in. This is false, and inaccurate information likely being provided by someone who fails to grasp the bigger picture of what development looks like.
- As I have already stated, I felt confident in June that we would continue our path forward towards a Q3 launch and frankly we just missed that mark.
- Claims that we haven't stated the why behind this : We have, and either it is being overlooked, or people just don't care about the perspective we've offered. I would recommend re-reading https://www.dragonsneck.com/threads/august-developer-update-2-of-2.187/ again.
- Myself and the team are all for critical and specific feedback. What isn't helpful or valuable is:
- Vague generalizations and doomsaying.
- Complaints that lack solutions-oriented thinking.
Overwhelmingly, the response to this has been positive (even if we acknowledge there are some pieces to shift that weren't accounted for). I appreciate the level-headed communication that comes as it relates to this. TDN will never be for everyone, and the team is aware of that. We intentionally try to be as transparent as possible to ensure that the community has as much information as possible so they can decide if TDN is the place they want to play. If you find that this isn't the place for you, please find a server or activity that you enjoy, or even go make your own (server/module). I believe that this change will enhance the overall experience for the server long-term, and hope that the community comes to embrace this large design change we've made.
