The d20 Stealth Situation

[Gadwin]

The unique stealth and perception mechanics that were intended to be used for TDN were scrapped. We're now left with vanilla systems.

The vanilla NWN1 systems for each stealth and perception are undesirable for TDN in particular due to its low level setting. The d20 system means that a lvl 11 sneak rogue can still be spotted by fresh spawn lvl 2's who have low or no investment in the skills.

This 1 to 20 variance on skill rolls is singlehandedly ruining stealth as a concept. Sneaks are at disadvantage after disadvantage and need help so their class fantasy is allowed to function.

I suggest perception and stealth skill rolls be made to use lower dice such as d6's or d10's instead of d20's. This makes it so that the investment put in by perceivers must be more equal to what investment is put in by sneaks.

The theoretical of having 30 in a skill and losing to someone who has 11 in their opposing skill is garbage, and should not exist in a world where such a check has to be met against every single person in view, every few seconds. Let mundane spy RP be able to exist!

 

[Elena]

I hear you. Neverwinter Night's d20 system definitely feels harsh for stealth-focused characters, especially in a low-level setting where skill differences aren't as wide. But I think any adjustment to the dice range will still lead to inherent unfairness. Just in a different way.

- Some classes simply don't get access to detection as class skills. If you reduce the variance of the roll (like switching to a d6), these classes will almost never have a chance to detect a skilled sneaker, making them perpetually vulnerable with no realistic way to improve.
- Rogues and Rangers already have more skill points to invest in stealth and perception due to their base skill points to allocate. Conversely, classes with fewer skill points (Paladins, Fighters, Sorcerers, ...) will never reach comparable levels in detection, because they have other skills to focus on (discipline, spellcraft, etc.), no matter the dice roll used.
- I think, if a d6 or d10 were used, it could overly favor the experienced sneaker, effectively invalidating any chance of detection, making "counterplay" impossible.
- Stealth benefits from dexterity. For most Sneaker, their main attribute. Compared to classes who would equally invest in wisdom, the sneaker are ahead again.

So, I think touching stealth, might results in either an "always works" or "never works" scenario.. neither is good. Right now, it's not "never works", but maybe "often works" (unless someone has invested skillpoints, then it's just a matter of time)

 

[Gadwin]

I understand the reservations towards not being able to deal with sneaking, but TDN is not a server where everyone is supposed to be able to do everything. Team play, specialization, and co-operation are the name of the game rather than powerbuilding.

Scouts' focus is anti-stealth and there are plenty of anti-stealth spells that immediately display all sneaks no matter what. Additionally, there are plenty of foolproof counters to stealth no amount of skill rankings can account for, such as doors, transitions, etc.

I do not believe it is fair to people who invest in stealth to be countered by anyone and everyone who invests the slightest bit into perception in addition to having to work around other hard-counters that exist specifically to shut them down. I also do not believe it is fair for stealth people to beat out the majority of others flawlessly and be able to stand 3 feet away in the middle of a full room and not be detected.

Lowering to a d10 would simply alleviate the problems at low level and negate people with low or zero investment from being able to trounce their heavy investments by dice rolls alone to make the playing field a little more fair for the sneaks. If someone has 14 perception and 0 wisdom, the sneak would need 24 stealth score to be able to beat it. To do this, they would need 14 stealth ranks, minimum 5 dex mod, skill focus feats in both hide and move silently, the 'stealthy' feat, and to be wearing light or cloth armor with no shield.

One side is putting in 14 skill points and has 0 stat mod.
The other side is putting in 14 skill points, 5 stat mod worth of investment, three feats, and has their armor choice dictated as cloth or light, which may not be optimal for AC, causing another trade-off for their skill proficiency; and even then they are just barely making the cut, and would still be beaten out by simply taking alertness or 2 wis mod rather than 0.

This is without accounting for things like elven perception boosts, class skill boosts, the perceiver actually investing into perception feats or wisdom ability score, or halfling sneaks, but the gist is that the people who have real perception bonuses will still be able to handily detect even the most devoted of sneaks, and people who throw 7 skill points into perception and call it a day will not be able to auto-detect the people who have half of their character identity wrapped up into stealth investments. A d10 for these skills also still allows for anyone with perception 14 to be able to counter the highest-tier sneaks by investing in feats / 1-2 wisdom mod themselves.

 

[OccamsClub]

This is going to be an important thing to figure out. Right now, I don't think sneaking is viable at all if we're using base NWN mechanics. The highest possible sneak on a level 11 can't compete with a level 2 Scout, or a level 5 Barbarian that just throws some ranks in Perception.

At the same time, it's common in NWN for sneak players to stand within sniffing distance of people in an open thoroughfare, snooping on conversations, if it's permitted. Core NWN stealth mechanics are utterly awful.

 

[Elena]

My experience are two-fold:

1) Mechanically
I've had many situations, where people went like: "Is she still with us?".. which to me was a clear indicator, that they could not spot me for quite some time - becoming worried, that I might have lost sight and directions of the group I was with. Through these situations, I have learned, that there are people who cannot see me and I have learned who the people are, that can reliably see me.

2) Role play
This is, in my opinion, way more important, than being able to mechanically "beat" someone. I have used this very few times.. yet I still consider this the most important aspect of what TDN is about. I once followed two people and eavesdropped on them. However, in order to do so, I had to cross a bridge.. because there was no way around them to get to a spot where I could listen to their whispers. I had two options. Use the mechanics and walk over the bridge, in their plain sight.. maybe I would have been lucky, maybe not. So I did it differently. I showed myself, not hiding, but using an emote, that I would be climbing down on one side, dive through the water, climb up on the other side and move into position. Some things now came into play, in order to have that roleplay situation:
a) "What you see is what you get". They could easily move away, upon seeing me, having their private chat elsewhere
b) They could play along, but specifically NOT speak about things they really didn't want someone else to hear, now that they OOC'ly knew, it's going to be overheard no matter what
c) I put the "burden" on them to be cautious not to let their OOC knowledge influence their IC behaviour
We made rolls - their perception vs my stealth. It worked out, and I eavesdropped. We had a great time.

In the end, we have to work with what we have. If you want to eavesdrop... you maybe can do it with simply a mechanical advantage. Maybe you cannot do it.. but there might be other ways to get what you want. Just not by simply right-click + 4, but with a bit more effort.

In PvE, stealth works 90% (limited experience!)