PREFACE:
I am generally arguing for making the undead more difficult, yet certainly possible, to fight. My character is currently a level 8 ranger, and with no specialisation against the undead. However, I have fought them at earlier levels before they were changed. The following is a revision of the feedback I've given in a ticket - entirely open to comments from other players as well, whether they agree or not. It is also meant to be a much more thorough and constructive report, hopefully addressing the mistakes I have made. Also, I am not too mechanically knowledgeable, so if I get the specifics wrong or don't use those terms to explain the why of what I highlight, it's because of that. Further clarification from players and such is appreciated and welcome on my end - so long as it doesn't devolve into theory-crafting and what staff might take issue with.
MECHANICAL EXPERIENCES:
1. With the recent changes (April 3rd patch, still applies), I found myself dealing tremendous amounts of damage (consistently 3x more at level 8) to most undead to the point they’ve become far less of a threat than what they used to be. Paladins and all divine / positive damage dealers practically carve through them like butter – including the wights and ghouls. To put this into perspective, before the change, even at level 8 I barely did any damage to them. However, from levels 3-8, with the right team, I still found them doable despite that, and I know of mundane, melee characters who also did. It was a challenge, but it felt rewarding and serious - both gameplay wise and in-character, which I will get to in the appropriate section.
2. While due to IC reasons my knowledge on Bormton's undead mechanically is incomplete, I've noted that the ghouls in the Ravine and even the Brides of the Pyre aren't too great a challenge. When I went to scout it, I had absolutely no trouble - excepting being diseased - from handling the surroundings alone. This raises several issues narratively as well, but if such a location and the path to it would be relegated to be middle level, then that would require later dungeons to be elevated in severity, essentially inviting power creep. Bormton is the perfect place to be a very high level area that requires the utmost diligence and ability in attempting to handle. This should be mechanically reflected through the powerful and highly dangerous forms of undead there - even the ghouls towards it. The diseases these ghouls can inflict people with are, however, a step in the right direction in my opinion.
3. Wraiths, ghosts and generally anything with concealment is now also possible to hit with regular weapons. They are still terrifying to face, especially due to their dreaded fear effect aura, but I think this is another change that removes a little mystery from them. Higher level characters can still handle them reasonably, but they're the only type of undead - save for certain ones I will not spoil - that could be considered "higher level".
4. Skeleton Barbarians (and most enemies in the Mausoleum) hit like trucks to the point I'm not really sure what level they should be tackled at; we're taking massive hits at level 8 - even more so than areas further out there. It's a bit of a whiplash: they're possibly the closest fully-fledged dungeon to Murann, yet also house stronger types of undead - and more of them - than those certain dungeons much, much further out there.
Ultimately, having removed their DR and such made it so that the unique nature of these enemies is diminished. There's no special way of handling them e.g. with divine, magical or mundanely sourced methods like blade oils. You don't need any kind of thinking or preperation, you just need brute force or a higher level. This axes several routes of RP such as being specialised against the undead trivial, while also making these enemy types feel a lot more game-y. As a result, it also fails to set the tone that they embody the twisted means by which they were created in how unnaturally resilient they are. At level 8, there's little save for Bormton and ghosts that feel challenging and rewarding to fight, leaving the majority of the undead to function the same as bugbears: hard-hitting enemies. It removes the depth they give to dungeons overall: for example, they might as well be replaced by goblins in the Empty Walls ruin and nothing would change.
NARRATIVE EXPERIENCES:
These mechanical changes have also created ripples in the game world. For example, if us repeatedly killing undead have made them grown weaker / they have generally become lesser, that logically made us rejoice and double our efforts to completely wipe them out altogether. This damages their IC credibility as serious and ever-present threats and removes the mystique they should be narratively treated with. Some of the explanations I've heard is that it is tied to the Weave having weakened somehow, or that necromancers have to resort to remains that are constantly being battered into powder by adventurers.
This is also strange as, for a year supposedly - and even before that - they were at their pre-nerf level of power, and our characters have been fighting them for that long or even more. That is why they were feared. They're narratively not a common threat to be regarded as "lower level" with the likes of goblins, kobolds etc. just because they may be in the same dungeons. As the world regards them, they're exceptionally sinister creations of pure evil, and so their weakness makes their creators appear incompetent and unlike the clever, morbid mages that they are. To that end, it also lessens the argument against magic that, due in part to this specific branch of it, so many horrible deeds were done that, maybe, it's better to have greater limitations on magic, etc.
It even partially undermines IC efforts to warn people away from Bormton - which the world even reinforces - as the same applies to the undead there and, perhaps, require a DM to prevent its trivialisation to adventurers. Even before these changes, when few were at the level cap, groups already delved deep into Bormton. There is little reason now not to get the strongest characters and go and kill everything in sight there in an attempt to end the curse, as there's no better time to strike at the undead than when they're at their weakest.
SUGGESTIONS:
1. The wights' level drain should be swapped out for some kind of disease / poison affliction (though not STR damage preferably). This simply makes more sense in a diseased, fungi-ridden sunken crypt. With my second point in mind, this could be perfectly reasonable. As for the skeletons and the like, returning their DR would be good. It would see them returned as legitimate threats in the world and show why the dark arts might be so enticing to some.
2. Divine / nature, perhaps even arcane magic users have abilities to treat this. There should, of course, be a mundane equivalent to it: kits that remove disease / poison or something like that. It would necessitate preperation and understanding of the type of undead, the area, etc. Also, the undead types deeper into Bormton are still strong regardless of level, so I hope that's true and someone could confirm it. I would even suggest that the enemies here should bestow minor curses sometimes to fit the theme of Bormton, give the players something to RP, as well as other reasons I've mentioned.
3. Give wraiths and other ghost enemy types Level Drain. This would make them terrifying to fight and make people think twice about doing so in-character, while also being coherent with what this enemy type could do. It is also something that the higher level characters facing them would have the abilities and the wealth to treat, yet it wouldn't be a trivial matter in combat or outside of it - also potentially giving them something to RP.
4. It makes little sense to me why they'd be even used here mechanically and narratively as well. They should mirror the small crypt right next to it, but simply bigger, with some fading wraiths used sparingly to make them stand out and feel like a greater threat. This would make it so that the small crypt could be a taster of sorts - a test of one's preparedness and might against the undead in the first place, and also lead more naturally to the bigger dungeon, with better rewards.
P.S: There is much more that could be discussed with them, I think, so if I left out certain arguments or points that's probably why. Again, I'm looking forward to the responses to this and I will consider them and elaborate accordingly where I am able. I tried to keep it relatively brief and easy to skim through, while also being concise with the general gist of it.
I am generally arguing for making the undead more difficult, yet certainly possible, to fight. My character is currently a level 8 ranger, and with no specialisation against the undead. However, I have fought them at earlier levels before they were changed. The following is a revision of the feedback I've given in a ticket - entirely open to comments from other players as well, whether they agree or not. It is also meant to be a much more thorough and constructive report, hopefully addressing the mistakes I have made. Also, I am not too mechanically knowledgeable, so if I get the specifics wrong or don't use those terms to explain the why of what I highlight, it's because of that. Further clarification from players and such is appreciated and welcome on my end - so long as it doesn't devolve into theory-crafting and what staff might take issue with.
MECHANICAL EXPERIENCES:
1. With the recent changes (April 3rd patch, still applies), I found myself dealing tremendous amounts of damage (consistently 3x more at level 8) to most undead to the point they’ve become far less of a threat than what they used to be. Paladins and all divine / positive damage dealers practically carve through them like butter – including the wights and ghouls. To put this into perspective, before the change, even at level 8 I barely did any damage to them. However, from levels 3-8, with the right team, I still found them doable despite that, and I know of mundane, melee characters who also did. It was a challenge, but it felt rewarding and serious - both gameplay wise and in-character, which I will get to in the appropriate section.
2. While due to IC reasons my knowledge on Bormton's undead mechanically is incomplete, I've noted that the ghouls in the Ravine and even the Brides of the Pyre aren't too great a challenge. When I went to scout it, I had absolutely no trouble - excepting being diseased - from handling the surroundings alone. This raises several issues narratively as well, but if such a location and the path to it would be relegated to be middle level, then that would require later dungeons to be elevated in severity, essentially inviting power creep. Bormton is the perfect place to be a very high level area that requires the utmost diligence and ability in attempting to handle. This should be mechanically reflected through the powerful and highly dangerous forms of undead there - even the ghouls towards it. The diseases these ghouls can inflict people with are, however, a step in the right direction in my opinion.
3. Wraiths, ghosts and generally anything with concealment is now also possible to hit with regular weapons. They are still terrifying to face, especially due to their dreaded fear effect aura, but I think this is another change that removes a little mystery from them. Higher level characters can still handle them reasonably, but they're the only type of undead - save for certain ones I will not spoil - that could be considered "higher level".
4. Skeleton Barbarians (and most enemies in the Mausoleum) hit like trucks to the point I'm not really sure what level they should be tackled at; we're taking massive hits at level 8 - even more so than areas further out there. It's a bit of a whiplash: they're possibly the closest fully-fledged dungeon to Murann, yet also house stronger types of undead - and more of them - than those certain dungeons much, much further out there.
Ultimately, having removed their DR and such made it so that the unique nature of these enemies is diminished. There's no special way of handling them e.g. with divine, magical or mundanely sourced methods like blade oils. You don't need any kind of thinking or preperation, you just need brute force or a higher level. This axes several routes of RP such as being specialised against the undead trivial, while also making these enemy types feel a lot more game-y. As a result, it also fails to set the tone that they embody the twisted means by which they were created in how unnaturally resilient they are. At level 8, there's little save for Bormton and ghosts that feel challenging and rewarding to fight, leaving the majority of the undead to function the same as bugbears: hard-hitting enemies. It removes the depth they give to dungeons overall: for example, they might as well be replaced by goblins in the Empty Walls ruin and nothing would change.
NARRATIVE EXPERIENCES:
These mechanical changes have also created ripples in the game world. For example, if us repeatedly killing undead have made them grown weaker / they have generally become lesser, that logically made us rejoice and double our efforts to completely wipe them out altogether. This damages their IC credibility as serious and ever-present threats and removes the mystique they should be narratively treated with. Some of the explanations I've heard is that it is tied to the Weave having weakened somehow, or that necromancers have to resort to remains that are constantly being battered into powder by adventurers.
This is also strange as, for a year supposedly - and even before that - they were at their pre-nerf level of power, and our characters have been fighting them for that long or even more. That is why they were feared. They're narratively not a common threat to be regarded as "lower level" with the likes of goblins, kobolds etc. just because they may be in the same dungeons. As the world regards them, they're exceptionally sinister creations of pure evil, and so their weakness makes their creators appear incompetent and unlike the clever, morbid mages that they are. To that end, it also lessens the argument against magic that, due in part to this specific branch of it, so many horrible deeds were done that, maybe, it's better to have greater limitations on magic, etc.
It even partially undermines IC efforts to warn people away from Bormton - which the world even reinforces - as the same applies to the undead there and, perhaps, require a DM to prevent its trivialisation to adventurers. Even before these changes, when few were at the level cap, groups already delved deep into Bormton. There is little reason now not to get the strongest characters and go and kill everything in sight there in an attempt to end the curse, as there's no better time to strike at the undead than when they're at their weakest.
SUGGESTIONS:
1. The wights' level drain should be swapped out for some kind of disease / poison affliction (though not STR damage preferably). This simply makes more sense in a diseased, fungi-ridden sunken crypt. With my second point in mind, this could be perfectly reasonable. As for the skeletons and the like, returning their DR would be good. It would see them returned as legitimate threats in the world and show why the dark arts might be so enticing to some.
2. Divine / nature, perhaps even arcane magic users have abilities to treat this. There should, of course, be a mundane equivalent to it: kits that remove disease / poison or something like that. It would necessitate preperation and understanding of the type of undead, the area, etc. Also, the undead types deeper into Bormton are still strong regardless of level, so I hope that's true and someone could confirm it. I would even suggest that the enemies here should bestow minor curses sometimes to fit the theme of Bormton, give the players something to RP, as well as other reasons I've mentioned.
3. Give wraiths and other ghost enemy types Level Drain. This would make them terrifying to fight and make people think twice about doing so in-character, while also being coherent with what this enemy type could do. It is also something that the higher level characters facing them would have the abilities and the wealth to treat, yet it wouldn't be a trivial matter in combat or outside of it - also potentially giving them something to RP.
4. It makes little sense to me why they'd be even used here mechanically and narratively as well. They should mirror the small crypt right next to it, but simply bigger, with some fading wraiths used sparingly to make them stand out and feel like a greater threat. This would make it so that the small crypt could be a taster of sorts - a test of one's preparedness and might against the undead in the first place, and also lead more naturally to the bigger dungeon, with better rewards.
P.S: There is much more that could be discussed with them, I think, so if I left out certain arguments or points that's probably why. Again, I'm looking forward to the responses to this and I will consider them and elaborate accordingly where I am able. I tried to keep it relatively brief and easy to skim through, while also being concise with the general gist of it.
Last edited:
